Stall-Fighting Lesson 1
by Shaky Stick

From Shaky: OK...we will now open for questions....who is first?

From Docden: Is stall-fighting really just a form of E fighting…I mean even in what we call a "stall-fight, E management is critical no? Perhaps even more critical than straight B & Z?

From Shaky: Well, Doc, ya kinda answered that one for me: ALL fighting is basically E fighting, "stall fighting is no different. By E fighting, we mean keeping an energy advantage over your opponent by either keeping a altitude <alt> or speed advantage or both. This enables you to control the fight. In Stall-fighting, though, the differences in the fighters energy is usually management of energy is even MORE important in a stall-fight. Another reason is because escape is not always an option, in a stall fight, someone usually dies.

From Tsheehy: great thanks.. hehe.. Can you go over the appropriate use of rudders during a stall-fight ?

From Shaky: Rudders in AW are mainly used to "yaw" the plane, that is, point its nose in a direction OTHER than its direction of flight, thus creating a slight "angle". In AW, its uses are limited to maneuvering in a fight, since AW "auto-coordinates" rudders for turns. Now, in a fight, rudders are useful for TWO main reasons: ONE...to line up that plane that is JUST a bit outside the aim point, giving you a chance for the shot. In my experience, however this does result in a slightly lesser chance to hit. It's better to line up WITHOUT using rudders, but in a fast moving stall-fight, if that's all you have, take it…TWO: rudders DO increase your rate of ROLL. That is moving the plane about its long axis by moving the stick right or left. In most planes, the effect is minimal, but noticeable. In certain planes, notably the P38, the use of rudders to assist roll rates is almost mandatory, since it rolls so slow normally.

From Tsheehy: how about the effectiveness of using opposite rudder to keep the nose up?

From Shaky: Use of opposite rudders can help you keep the nose up in a tight turn, BUT, if you need them to do that, you are probably moving so slow that you will stall and spin before you can get guns on. In that case, it may be wiser to drop the nose build some speed back rather than push a bad shot.

From Sluggo: Ok, regarding rudders still are there any serious drawbacks to using the to help increase your roll rate? i.e. does it cause you to bleed more energy, etc?

From Shaky: ANY use of control surfaces will cause E loss. That's the way Kesmai models drag, that's the way it is in real life. The use of rudders, however, reduces Energy <E> only slightly, and is not usually noticeable.

From Petsku: How do you survive stall fight in high wing loaded plane against plane with lower wing loading with equal E?

From Shaky: All things being equal, speed, alt, pilot quality....short answer is you don't. Best chances are, however keep the speed high...over 225 kts. Reason for this is so that plane turning ability is no longer the determining factor in how quickly you can maneuver....pilot tolerance is. In other words keep the fight fast enough so that you black out before the low wing loaded plane's best turn performance is reached. This usually means a fight that spirals down as the high loaded fighter tries to maintain speed and turn at the same time. Because of this, vertical maneuvers are the key. Don't just turn flat. Keep split-s'ing and pulling high wingovers. Oh...and kill the Spit before the fight gets slow.

From Sluggo: Say i'm in a stall-fighter, and I am bounced by a higher B&Z plane. What is a good defense other than the usual break-turn most people seem to employ?

From Shaky: OK...defense against a higher B&Zer.... First off...the plane with the higher energy, in this case the B&Zer, will ALWAYS control the fight. He decides when to attack, when to leave. The stall-fighters objective in this case is simple; BECOME the plane with the better energy!...now...how to do this? First off, determine exactly what you are up against. You will generally see 2 types of B&Zers in the arena. The first, and most common, is the "make a pass, extend...make a pass" type. This is the easiest to defend against. This fighter will dive on you, try for a shot, then extend out 2-4 thousand <k> and zoom, then come back. To defend against him, keep your nose to him. Force the head-on shot. As he dives on your nose, try to "lead turn" him. Break UP and to one side <Never a straight up move as he comes within 900 yds with the objective of finishing your half loop on his six within guns range. You may get a shot before he pulls out of range, but he WILL pull away from you as he takes that LONG extend. Use the opportunity to climb a bit to equalize E states. Keep this up until you are Co-E enough to force him to turn, starting a stall-fight, or until he leaves.

The SECOND type of B&Zer is much more dangerous. You will see him make his pass and pull almost straight vertical...zooming almost directly overhead. His objective is to try to get you to climb after him which, of course, you cannot do since he is faster and will get higher fast. He wants to get you slow so you cannot maneuver then drop on your head finish you off. This is MUCH harder to defend against. To defend against it, you MUST keep maneuvering speed up somewhere between 150 and 225 kts, that way you can quickly break to avoid his attacks They will come quickly, one right after another. Best moves if you get slow is an "oblique" split S, rolling over, pulling down and to one side, then try to follow him as he zooms for his next show. If he gets greedy, he may try to follow you as you split-S. To do this, he MUST turn, which slows him down and works for YOU. Things to remember are to keep speed over 150, and always turn into him.

From Sluggo: So assuming it is the B&Zers first pass, I do not know if he will extend or zoom immediately, so if I pull a hard lead turn and he zooms, I am in trouble, right?

From Shaky: You COULD be, but remember, this is only the FIRST break for you...you should still have a decent speed....if not...and he is right over head, drop the nose IMMEDIATLY for speed and break away from him.

From Thrustmaster: I have a few, but most have been answered. What is the minimum Range for Guns? I have seen, and been told MANY different things on this.

From Shaky: Guns range, assuming planes are at relative speed 0, is 650 yds

From Thrustmaster: Could you define Wingload for me?

From Shaky: Wingloading.....I'll give you the "ez speak" answer.... is the amount of the planes weight a given area of wing must support. What this means is that a LOW wingloaded plane will have to support LESS weight on a given area of wing surface than a high wingloded plane, meaning it is "lighter" on its wings, making it quicker to maneuver and able to turn at a higher rate. It has "more to spare" since its using less for a given wing area. On the converse side, a High loaded plane usually has less drag since it has less wing and produces less potential lift at any given moment. Of course, this is only for wings. Other factors are involved...witness the WUNDERSpit <g>.

From Thrustmaster: So its a trade off.

From Shaky: Basically...yes. Think of the classic example.... low wingloaded is the Zeke...light, maneuverable...nimble, slow.... verses the F4...High wingloaded, fast, turns like a brick

From Grits: i sort of understand it but how does a lag turn work?

From Shaky: Ugh..."lag turn" is one of those phrases that has many meanings depending on whose books you read...the meaning that I use lag turn as applied to lag pursuit in a turn <g>.... When we speak of Lag, lead, and pure....we are basically saying that the gunsight is BEHIND <lag>, ON <pure> or AHEAD <pure> of the quarry. So, what does all this mean? It relates to "closure" or how fast you are closing on a target. PURE pursuit...putting the gunsight <actually your planes line of right ON the enemy will result, given identical speeds, in NO closure. You will neither gain nor lose ground on an opponent. This is assuming identical speeds, and for now, rates of turn. I.e., at this point both planes have the same rate of turn, thus are pulling the same Gs. Upshot is, YOU blackout when he does.

Now, LAG pursuit means placing the boresight BEHIND the enemy. Again, given same speeds, you will LOSE ground and fall further behind. This is useful if you are FASTER than you opponent because, since you are faster, you are closing BUT since you are using lag pursuit, you are closing LESS, giving you a longer opportunity to set up a shot. ALSO, since you are NOT turning as, you are NOT pulling as many Gs, and he blacks out first <g>...

LEAD pursuit is perhaps the MOST useful of the three. Say in a fight, you are co alt, co speed, and he is turning in front of you JUST outta guns range...frustrating, no? Well, just put the boresight AHEAD of the target as you both turn and you WILL close the BUT YOU are turning harder and risk blacking out first.

From Grits: so a lag roll is just a way to increase your lag ?

From Shaky: Yes....it is a Barrel type roll <performed vertically as you turn with bogie> with your boresight BEHIND the bogie...opening the range and hopefully giving you a better angle for a shot. Remember...the closer you are....the HARDER you have to pull to close and angle to get a shot.

From Tsheehy: in a stallfigter, at what point do you engage your flaps for extra turn rate? as a last ditch effort or to get an advantage early on? how bout those with a maneuvering flap vs those without?

From Shaky: Hmmm...depends on plane.... in a 38, for example <not my plane> most devotees swear by ONE notch of flaps at all times while stall-fighting...with an extra as needed. These flaps <38 and 51> are called maneuvering flaps, because they extend only a little bit, increasing lift <and turn> without much drag penalty...other than that...I use flaps ONLY on two occasions while fighting... ONE...to get the extra little "push" to get me over the top on a slow loop... TWO...when I KNOW that I can get the shot by using them and kill the bad guy NOW. Problem with flaps is that they increase drag horribly, although "maneuvering flaps" to a lesser extent, thus slowing you down and blowing energy...the Spit is the worst for this with; its ALL UP OR DOWN flaps.....instead of using the flaps to better the turn rate it may be better to pull a little up and "cut the corner" on the bad guy, thus preserving some E.

From Thrustmaster: You mentioned Angle on gunnery. Do you look for more "Surface Area" to shoot at or are you looking for something else?

From Shaky: I am looking for ONE thing, mainly...a shot on the enemies dead six o'clock position from less than 300. HOWEVER...in a stall-fight, I will take any rear quarter shot I can get...I will AVOID head on shots. Why? Well, while I'm straightening out to take that low percentage head on shot, the bad guys is still turning, gaining an angle on me so HE can shoot me from the back. So, No, I don't look for the "biggest" surface area, that would straight on top or directly underneath...that's a 90 degree deflection and a lower percentage shot than one from dead 6 o'clock.

From Thrustmaster: why is the 6 shot better than having all that surface area?

From Headhunter: HitBubble and gunnery modes <G>

From Shaky: A six o'clock shot has several advantages some of them "real" some unique to AW... REAL...the target is moving LESS relative to you than a 90 degree shot, simplifying tracking and giving a longer shot opportunity also...since you are directly BEHIND your opponent, he has a HELL of a lot of work to do to try to get the FRONT of his where the guns are, pointed at YOU. In AW...dead 6 and rear quarter shot, especially close in <less than 250 yds> are given a substantial lethality bonus as well.

From Hotrail: spiral climb..... what planes...How.....when.....why?

From Shaky: Spiral climb is a much ballyhooed tactic useful in ONE specific circumstance, when you are turning with your opponent, just out of range, and cam climb faster than he....the idea is to sucker him into following you, thus he stalls out, drops his nose, and you drop on him <g>. ANY plane can do this...given a speed advantage. Planes that excel are planes that climb well: the 109, Cat, F4, Spit.

From Hotrail: how? rudder usage?

From Shaky: No.... just turn and climb.

From Shaky: wanna beat someone doing it to you? Keep speed up, use lead pursuit, pull the nose up sharply for a quick 2-3 second shot, drop the nose back down for speed BEFORE you get close to stalling.

From Thrustmaster: One Quick one. I have tried to use the Split S a few times, but I have a very hard time determining when i am "Straight Up". How do I do it effectively?

From Shaky: What?...determine when you are "straight up" <or down>?

From Thrustmaster: Basically, the Split S as i have had it described, you pull straight up, Aileron

From Thrustmaster: Roll, and Level.. How do I know when to Roll? Add ladder bars with break?

From Shaky: well...first off...the Split-S is a DOWNWARD maneuver...an "Immelman" is up <g> basically....why are you worried about being straight up? As long as you can put a little roll into the maneuver it makes you hard to don't matter whether your nose is 90 degree to earth or not but in AWW...the best way is to use the TM gear quickly look left or right when the ground is at 90 degree to the wing, you nose is straight up or down.

From Redcoat: ok Doc was talking about a 'sliceback' on Oz today, whats that?

From Sluggo: Sliceback is a split-s that is not purely vertical, ie . somewhere between horizontal and straight down pitchback is immel that is not straight up. Mr. Ed says those are pretty standard Air Force terms

From Shaky: Ahhh...that's what I have referred to as an "Oblique Split-S" Or Oblique Immelman

From Redcoat: he was talking about climbing first though

From Shaky: Yes....In ANY type of downward maneuver...it's a good idea NOT to enter with a lot of speed.... climbing before a sliceback does TWO thing... bleeds some of that speed, AND enables you to exit the maneuver at roughly the same alt you started it...in essence, a rapid way to sharply change direction. BOTH of these maneuvers are to be preferred in a stall-fight verses a "straight" immel or split-s since they are both harder to track, and get you a better angle on the opponent.

From Thrustmaster: How do you recommend dropping speed in a long dive?

From Shaky: Why would you want to? To avoid compressibility?

From Thrustmaster: exactly... Too many times I lose control when i am coming down on someone.

From Shaky: Best way is to chop throttle...NO plane will compress in a steep dive at 1/2 throttle. Remember though...by chopping that throttle, you are giving up E... So make darn sure there aint no one about with better E

From Thrustmaster: Hmm... Have to play with that one. Should i chop throttle Immediately, or somewhere along the dive? Any "Magic" speed?

From Shaky: About when... Well...take it close to max dive speed, then chop testing controllability with "test" movements of the stick to see if the plane still responds "magic Speed", that is, how fast is just right, varies with EACH plane. For example, the Jug <P-47> compresses at about 350 kts, any faster and your controls lock, while the 51 can go 450 or more....how to find out?....: Kesmai publishes no figures on this...best way is to test for yourself.

From Shaky: done